Ooh 'eck, this could turn into a big can of worms!
I know the 'rules' have wisely been prescribed as guidelines for individuals to adhere to or ignore as they see fit, which I feel is the only sensible way forward...but...
I'd propose to slightly alter the 'sensory' section and raise a few queries regards counting garden-derived plants.
The Rules currently state that a species has to be seen to be counted, but what about if you are walking past woodland at night and hear a Tawny Owl hooting? Or a Nightingale singing? Neither are "difficult" species to identify by sound, so assuming you are confident in your knowledge of the calls you ought to be able to add those species to your list with a clean conscience. Another scenario would involve identifying bats via their calls on a bat detector but not seeing the bat itself. In this instance I definitely wouldn't add the species to my list as you aren't hearing the bat itself, merely a manufactured representation of its call. Here's another example that springs to mind - you can hear a Great Green Bush-cricket stridulating noisily from a large bramble patch but just can't see the bugger (sound familiar anyone?) If the animal itself is producing the sound by using a part of its body and you are happy with the identification then that, to my mind, is perfectly countable.
Regards garden escaped plants - bit of a minefield and I suspect there will be strong words voiced on both sides of the garden fence. The house owner plants an exotic, non-native species in the herbaceous border. Two years later it has spread via runners or rhizomes and is croping up 2 or 3 feet away from the original planted individuals. Several years go by and the patch has grown and spread out through the garden fence and onto the public footpath outside the garden boundary. This, in my mind, does not constitute a tickable species - it is still vegetatively connected to the original planting, hence not established despite moving 30ft from the original site of introduction. Next scenario, as above a plant is introduced to the herbaceous border and at the end of the season sets seed and crops up 30ft away the following year, outside of the garden and on the public footpath. This new plant then duly sets seed and has become self-supporting and established. This, in my mind, is tickable. Third scenario is exactly the same as the above example except the 30ft travelled puts it in a different part of the same garden! What's the difference??? And that's not even starting on garden throw-outs illegally dumped over the back fence where they set root and flourish. Technically this is just another form of deliberate planting but with a lot less care!!! Hence not tickable?
Discuss, lol.
PS Apologies for the strange spacings - I'm trying to seperate out the paragraphs!
Think how many species you could have found in the time it took to write that!
A lot more than I would've if the formatting worked properly, lol :D Off to the sand dunes now in search of pseudoscorpions!
Seth,
You're right in a way - if you've heard a species and can conclusively identify it on call, then why not count it? It's a bit arbitrary to decide that the visual sense is the only one that counts (and very harsh on the blind!). But no British birder would tick a bird on heard-only and they'd pour scorn on anyone who did. So, although I wish I could count the singing Little Shearwater on Lundy, I won't.
As for escaped plants, I'd do the same as you - count it if it was self-seeded, not count it if it has vegetatively spread beyond the garden boundary. But of course in reality you can only guess how the plant got there and where it came from. Partly because you're always having to wrestle with your conscience over such issues, I find botanising for aliens one of the least exciting branches of natural history.
Mark
I agree with Mark that heard only should not count. The examples you give are indeed readily recorded from song/call, but we are not talking about recording, but ticking, ie it is the first time you have ever come across this species. Of course modern technology does alow you to learn lots of vocalisaions in advance, but I suspect that most people who have never seen a tawny owl have yet to familiarise themselves with all the possible natural and unatural sounds which, might mislead a person never having heard a tawny owl before. You might just be listening to someones mobile phone going off! So for recording of course sounds, smells and signs can often be more important than vision, but for a species entirely new to you, seeing it is a must.
As for alien plants, it is very similar to birds and escape possibility, its a matter of judgement on a case by case basis.
Mark, Dave - I see what you are both saying, but I'd suggest that you two are probably right at the top end of being so utterly rigorous when it comes to your ticks that it puts you on a level that not many others feel they need to attain. I'm not suggesting that the rest of us are 'sloppy tickers', merely that you two in particular stand out for being ruthlessly pure in what you count. I ticked Grasshopper Warbler on call only when I was 15 years old, it was reeling from a bramble patch at the back of an inaccessible field. I was a YOC member sneaking along on a RSPB group outing and the 'grown-ups' all knew the song (tick!) I didn't actually see one until the following summer at another site with unrestricted access, allowing me to creep through the grasses until I was a mere 2ft away and the reeling was, quite literally, pulsing in my head! As I recall, nobody "poured scorn on me" for ticking via call only.
Dave, you don't 'tick' a plant unless you've seen it in flower. Fair enough, but the plant is still alive and real even if not flowering. Does this mean you wouldn't tick a caterpillar or a beetle larva or a juvenile wader seeing as they too are not yet in breeding condition? Were you to be, as a purely hypothetical example, twitching Britain's first Northern Rough-winged Swallow on St Kilda and you happened to spot a new plant growing along the clifftop, you wouldn't count it even if readily identifiable in vegetative state and at a known site unless it was in flower? To me that seems a bit bizarre. You may never get to St Kilda ever again. You may never see that hypothetical plant ever again. You know what it is, the identity is known without a doubt but you still won't tick it?
Mark, you won't tick anything that's been potted even if, as happened last year, I see a pair of Clytra quadripunctata and, worried they will disappear before you finish digging up a wood ant nest, pop them into a pot until you are ready to check them. You kinda pulled a controlled grimace, as I recall. But then Skev saw one flying past and netted it which you merrily ticked (with a big 'phew' of relief, lol). Just seems a bit...odd?
Chaps, I'm NOT saying either of you are being daft or are both a bit looney tunes (well, no more so than any other mega-ranked PSLer is...) clearly that is very definitely not the case! All I'm doing is highlighting that your personal levels of rigour are so very very high that you may now have artificially high levels of expectancy for the rest of us to follow?
By the way, I'm not talking about general recording. I can see that recording needs to be as rigorous as possible, and also that tracks, droppings, skin sloughs, roadkill, vacated mines etc are all fine for recording purposes if not for ticking. Or so I guess for most of us, at least. And please don't take anything I've just written personally. I'm pretty much in awe of you two guys and your natural history abilities.
Steve Gale is the chap to ask regards the countability of garden plants gone/going wild. Hopefully he may add a commment or two?
Cheers, Seth.
Hmm. Can of worms firmly open.
I find the alien plant thing very difficult to get my head around. With birds, I do count introduced species, wherever in the world they may be, as long as they are part of a self supporting established population. Whether or not this is the case is usually easy to know, given the massive amount of data on even the scarcest birds, relatively speaking. In reality, it probably only affects a handful of my list worldwide.
Plants are a little more tricky. My garden has a lot of alien plant species. Bar a few exceptions, all have been placed there by me. Many self seed around freely. Whether inside or outside the garden boundary, I would feel very uncomfortable ticking them. What about annuals? Most self seed very freely indeed. What aobut plants self seeing around the greenhouse? Can I count six or seven species of Sarracenia?
Established introduced plants I am fine with. Any others don't make it onto my list. If they did, I would be hundreds of species up I suspect. Even then, I prefer aliens growing 'in the wild' far away from urban areas. Anything less feels odd.
Potted insects I do count, but not if they have been potted and transported (eg for me to tick) or in someone's fridge. Maybe inconsistent, but if someone shows me a pot in the field, at least I feel I was there at the time and it doesn't grate.
And that's before we get onto dead things.... :D
It's fascinating to understand other people's rules when it comes to which species can be counted for their lists. I agree with many of the previous comments, but my own quest to see species stems from a desire to understand more about British and Irish natural history and be more familiar with our species. So I'm interested in alien species (and the impacts they have on native species) but I'm only really interested in those species which are firmly established. So my rule of thumb is to count non-native species in truly 'wild' places and to count obviously wild species in man-made habitats. As my quest is to see wild British and Irish species, I have counted potted invertebrates as long as they have come from the wild and as long as they'll be returned. I won't count dead things and I won't kill anything to identify it. By my own rules, I suppose I could count the contents of a fisherman's keepnet if the catch is returned to the river. But I haven't encountered that dilemma yet.
It's fascinating to understand other people's rules when it comes to which species can be counted for their lists. I agree with many of the previous comments, but my own quest to see species stems from a desire to understand more about British and Irish natural history and be more familiar with our species. So I'm interested in alien species (and the impacts they have on native species) but I'm only really interested in those species which are firmly established. So my rule of thumb is to count non-native species in truly 'wild' places and to count obviously wild species in man-made habitats. As my quest is to see wild British and Irish species, I have counted potted invertebrates as long as they have come from the wild and as long as they'll be returned. I won't count dead things and I won't kill anything to identify it. By my own rules, I suppose I could count the contents of a fisherman's keepnet if the catch is returned to the river. But I haven't encountered that dilemma yet.
I think even if the rules allowed ticking on heard-only, I'd still want to see the organism if I possibly could, certainly if it was my first ever encounter with the species.
In my early birding years I was told you shouldn't tick a bird in a ringer's hand but wait to see it released back into the wild. I guess that's why I won't tick inverts that have been potted up - I like to have a consistent set of rules across all taxonomic groups.The pan-species listing rules allow pot-ticking but I just find it really dissatisfying and I don't really understand why!
I guess we all do things differently. There are apparently those who will only tick a species once they've photographed it on their nose ;)
What kind of a weirdo would put lifers on their nose? Flummoxed ;)
I eagerly await the photographs for when Seth finally ticks a Risso's :P
Could probably manage Risso's Crab without too much difficulty... I eagerly await the day I tick Risso's Dolphin too, mate!!! :D
So hybrids.. flowers.. if its got a seperate name its OK?
So the A303 Beefly orchid is a tickable species?
Ophrys x. pietzschii ( Ophrys apifera x O. insectifera)
And the awesome monkey lady orchid Orchis purpurea x O. simia (O. x angusticruris) at Hartslock
Whereas Carex acuta × nigra woudn't be.
This does make the decision about what to include and what not to include nice and easy (once you've done a bit of research) but hopefully there's a sound basis behind it.. ?
Do botanists only give names to stable hybrids?
Having a botanical name doesn't imply stability, certainly among some genera. In Sarracenia, most of the intrageneric hybrids have binomials but most are very variable and form hybrid swarms at best, not so sure about uk examples,
All that we can be certain of is that not one pan-lister will have the same set of values as to what can, and cannot, be counted as a tick.
I'm confused, I can tell you...
The Wild Flower Society have league tables set up for their members which allow a promotion when the member reaches a certain level. The higher up you go, the more varied are the groupings that you can count. The Top Dogs (all with 2500+ species at least and one member attaining 5000+ !!) can count such things as garden varieties that have self seeded - some real blowsy bred stuff here, species that certainly look as if they shouldn't have left an elderly aunts sideboard vase, such things as varieties of rose. For those middle low-listers in the WFS, then any species (or identifiable hybrid, or sub-species) that is deemed to be where you found it through natural means - ie not deliberately planted - is countable. How do you know what has self-sown or not? You don't. You need to weigh up the eveidence and go with your gut feeling.
Moths in pots. Now this has really got me squirming. I HAVE ticked moths in pots in fridges, but cannot accept the current 'moth-in-fridge tourism' that is currently going on as anything other than bizarre. But I'm guilty of it as well, to a far lesser extent, and only at Dungeness - that doesn't let me off the hook by the way, it just gives me an excuse for having been there at the time to see said moth.It does no harm, the 'tourist' sees a good moth, has a chat with a few mothers, picks up a bit of local gen and goes home happy.
Unless somebody draughts some hard and fast rules for all of us, we will all tick stuff with differing codes of conduct. That's OK by me, as the league table element of the 'PSL world' is just a bit of fun
"Unless somebody draughts some hard and fast rules for all of us, we will all tick stuff with differing codes of conduct. That's OK by me, as the league table element of the 'PSL world' is just a bit of fun"
Indeed - a playing field that's about as level as the Himalayas - the different approaches, and personal rules and, therefore the end totals, are more for a bit of banter whilst everyone dives into whatever bit of natural diversity floats their boat.
& thanks for the interesting insight into the WFS :)
I am kind of amazed that anyone would include hybrid plants in a list. My list doesn't and I did take one off the other day when it was pointed out it is now a hybrid (a Salix).
But on the other hand I do think a person's list is their own and I would hate to see a load of rules about PSL. I think the great beauty of it is the fact it gets you out there, keeps the brain active and hopefully gets records onto useful places (recorders lists, societies map schemes etc). I spent today out with a sweep net (purchased six weeks ago) and spent 6 hours out in the field looking at things I wouldn't have even considered a few years ago (Thanks - Mr Telfer and Mr Lyons for PSL) . I loved it and enjoyed being with another site lister struggling to come to terms with what we saw and identify it. There are so many ways to see these things not only as a lister but as an engineer (I was terrified of spiders as a child until I realised how superb the structure of one is), a taxonomist, a poet (The Windhover), an artists, a musician (The Lark Ascending) plus all the others (Terry Pratchett has a nice bit about the fact that magic does exist in the world - you just have to see it {a daisy opening}). We should enjoy, understand and hopefully protect nature; but also at the same time have fun (PSL). So please lets not have lots of rules (religions have lots of rules and look where that's got half the world right now). So I don't do hybrids but if you if want them "fill your boots list".
I put a strike through boots but the posting seems to have removed it!!!
I have poor eyesight but very good hearing and smell. So any sense which unequivocally identifies a species is a tick for me!
Richard, so I reckon my ankles and calves are being chiggered by harvest-mites Trombicula autumnalis at the moment ... can I tick them on sense of touch alone?! I don't know how I'd go about laying eyes on them (nor for that matter how I could be sure they weren't some other species of trombiculid).
One of the good things about querying the rules is it makes you think a bit harder about the organism(s) place in the natural world, or at least the fundamental PSL question - is it a viable species?
RE plant hybrids, this is a known method of speciation within the plant kingdom, so I think its wrong to be dismissive of plant hybrids as 'true species' out of hand, even if it makes the boundaries of what is acceptable a lot harder. (aside - hybrid speciation is thought to occur rarely within vertebrates and may be the origin of Great Skua's odd genetic make up).
Apomixis could also be viewed as a muddy area, as it gives rise to a huge variety of microspecies, which being clones many would consider less valuable than 'full' species. Most of the groups that arise from this are not (imho) easy for the tyro botanist to seperate out - but again its an interesting facet of plant biology and speciation.. so I'm glad its allowed in the PSL, even if I can't personally make much use of it (other than seeking out the odd whitebeam).
Cyanobacteria is something I'm interested in due to its assocation with lichens, so I'd be happy to record it to species level where possible, despites its common name of 'blue green alga' its clearly a bacteria and outside the PSl guidelines, so I won't count it for my PSL list.
The downside with queryiing the rules, as pointed out above.. is wasting time on the rules - from a fairness / competition point of view, the solution would be to all use the same conformed list.. but I hope that will never be considered necessary. (and would be a problem for many rich backwaters - Acari for example)
I better get back to the specimen backlog !
Two points:
I don't normally record or count unfamiliar fungi unless I've seen the spores under the microscope. This is because I wouldn't normally accept a fungus id unless the microscopy was checked; ditto algae except large seaweeds.
The multicellular limitation makes little sense for groups which contain a mixture of singled-celled and multi-celled species (eg algae, cyanobacteria [altho cyanobacteria aren't really identifiable without DNA]).
I also wonder about organisms where part of the life cycle is single-celled... :o) (Guess why the smiley!)
PS: I've already counted black swan! Yes, it probably escaped from a collection, but it was wild. Although I wouldn't count a herd of cows that got loose.
There aren't enough questionably acceptable species to make a significant difference to the count, so don't worry about them.
Ha! That's a very interesting closing comment. I hadn't thought of it like that before :)